* COLLYNN: Welcome to the APAN Podcast. I'm Collynn Dang.


0:11


* We were honored to have Professor Heidi Ho as a guest for the podcast.


0:15


* As a law student at USF, Heidi participated in the Academic Support Program and was the public interest scholar.


0:19


* She is currently an assistant professor at USF and the co-director of ASP.


0:27


* She previously served as the Asian Battered Women's Project Attorney and managing attorney of the Asian Outreach Unit at Great Boston Legal Services.


0:33


* We talked to her about getting over imposter syndrome, meeting Yuri Kochiyama and her students' superpowers.


0:42


* We hope you enjoy our conversation. Heidi,


0:49


* we're so excited to have you on the podcast and very excited to learn more about your


0:56


* journey at the University of San Francisco and also your life and upbringing.


1:03


* So let's start from there. HEIDI: So I was born in Maui, and I have three older brothers.


1:07


* So I was, you know, the youngest of four and the only girl.


1:14


* And I think it was interesting for my situation, my mom was a schoolteacher when I was born.


1:19


* And partly she became a schoolteacher probably because there was no law school in Hawaii at the time.


1:26


* She had always wanted to be a lawyer, but it wasn't actually available to her.


1:32


* And so when the law school opened in 1975 or something in Hawaii, she kind of changed her plans by then.


1:37


* She was a single mom of all of us, and the law school was in Hawaii.


1:44


* But Hawaii has eight islands, right, and we're on Maui and the law school is actually on Oahu.


1:49


* And so what ended up happening was quickly our family-


1:53


* every one of my brothers, went to a different household and so did I, so that my mom could actually go,


1:58


* you know, basically abroad to another island and live on Oahu for her first year of law school.


2:02


* And then by her second year of law school, we came back together, at least my brother,


2:08


* who was right above me, because my two older brothers are seven and nine years older.


2:13


* And so they were just like, we're in high school, we're not coming over just for two years.


2:17


* So for me, the law school became my daycare.


2:21


* And so in second and third grade, I would, you know,


2:25


* come back from school and I would go straight to the law school library because my mom was either in class or studying.


2:28


* And I put all the law school books away. I'd actually sit in on con law as a two hour subject, your second year subject.


2:33


* And so I really felt like I knew...I felt like law school was a cool place.


2:38


* I saw students who really collaborated and worked together.


2:43


* They would have lots of gatherings. My mom started a women's football league, which was a real fun event.


2:47


* And so I knew like the chief justice, but I didn't think it was the chief justice.


2:54


* It was C.J. could have been Charles James for all I knew, you know?


2:58


* And so the world of the law just seemed vibrant, exciting.


3:01


* It was an expansion from the Hawaiian Renaissance that happened in the sixties.


3:05


* So it was really going after like what was happening, you know,


3:10


* in laws in Hawaii where you couldn't speak Hawaiian in schools but [things] were starting to change.


3:13


* You know, you could name your child a Hawaiian first name and things like that.


3:19


* So it was really this powerful moment for for me as a kid to be a part of it.


3:22


* So I always knew, like since first grade, I previous knew I want to be a lawyer like my mom.


3:28


* And I thought that was kind of cool watching her go through it.


3:32


* I think it's hard, you know, today as a teacher or a professor, when I have students who have kids, I'm like, this is awesome.


3:34


* Like, you know, your kids are going to totally get to see you as this amazing person and study


3:40


* two flashcards with each other or something like that. Because I dealt with just such a wonderful time for me.


3:46


* And also, I went to law school-and my first time in law school was first, second and third grade-


3:51


* and then I went to boarding school on Oahu for native Hawaiian students called Kamehameha School.


3:57


* And so I lived on Oahu, but I was from Maui still, from seventh grade since I was 12 until 18.


4:03


* And, you know, for me, that gave me the sense or the knowledge of who I am as a native Hawaiian woman,


4:10


* but also who we are in, you know, in Hawaii.


4:16


* So that you could actually go on to the mainland, you know, to go to school and stuff like that.


4:21


* Because I think if you understand who you are, it's easier to go away.


4:25


* It's like to have that sense of self like I knew who I am in my core being.


4:29


* So I grew up culturally Hawaiian, paddling canoe and doing all of the wonderful things that we have in Hawaii.


4:34


* And so my grandparents, you know, my grandmother's pure Japanese, my grandfather's Hawaiian Chinese.


4:41


* So that part of my life is very big as well in my growing up.


4:46


* In fact, you know, I took Japanese all through high school in order to you know, it was a very different time in the eighties, too.


4:51


* So we I did that and then my other side of the family, my mom's side is Hawaiian, Native American, French, English.


4:59


* So it's very mixed although I identify as Native Hawaiian.


5:05


* COLLYNN: Wow. Great, great background.


5:10


* Was there a certain influence or draw to your focus within immigration and family law?


5:13


* HEIDI: Yeah. So that was actually completely circumstance.


5:22


* It was kind of interesting. There wasn't immigration law. At least I didn't take any immigration law at USF back in the day.


5:26


* So I went to USF law in the nineties and so I should go back.


5:31


* I went to undergrad, I went to UC Irvine and I really wanted to specify criminology, law and legal studies.


5:37


* And I chose Irvine because there was a program called Social Ecology,


5:43


* which I think in the eighties was probably one of the first interdisciplinary majors I'd ever heard of where it was


5:47


* environmental health and planning.


5:55


* So like the ecology and you'd have to take your undergrad bottom courses and then you would go into psychology, social behavior.


5:56


* So how do people interact with the environment? How do people interact with each other?


6:02


* Why did they go grocery shopping here? So not just understanding how ecosystems and how cities are formed, but how people interact with that.


6:06


* And then the third layer was law and legal studies.


6:12


* So that's kind of after you did all three of those areas and how like laws are kind of structured and given order within that.


6:15


* And then once you did all three, you could go and emphasize in one area.


6:22


* So then I did criminology in that way and I thought for me that was kind of a way to do law school early.


6:26


* It wasn't technically, but it gave me better foundation of how like more regulatory our laws are and how pervasive it is in our,


6:32


* you know, in just in society. And it's not just, you know what you what you see on Law and Order, you know what I mean?


6:40


* So it's a bigger scene. And so I really enjoyed that aspect.


6:45


* I also ended up doing women's studies. So in the eighties when I started college, I didn't even know there was something called women's studies.


6:50


* You know, I just thought everybody around me, because my mom was a single mom,


6:56


* cool woman with all these cool women friends who are lawyers or really smart women.


6:58


* So I thought all women were just like that, you know, and,


7:03


* and they are actually so but I got to actually have an education in women's studies as well.


7:06


* And so when my husband and I got married, which we got married right out of college,


7:12


* he went to get his Master's at Harvard back East.


7:18


* So I went to work at Harvard's Women's Studies. And so that was a really cool experience for me to be a part of, you know,


7:23


* still be part of a university, not my university necessarily, but get to work with undergrad students.


7:29


* And in a really cool area where I got to meet like Betty Friedan and some of the amazing heroes,


7:34


* you know, in putting on these colloquium at the Women's Studies Office.


7:39


* And then, you know, we took turns going to school.


7:43


* So after he got his Master's, we came back west and he's a priest in the Episcopal Church, so he had a church in Berkeley.


7:45


* And then I went to USF and I chose USF specifically because of his job in California,


7:53


* I had applied to go to University of Hawaii, you know, for law school, because I loved that. That was like my ideal idea of a law school.


7:59


* But I thought, you know, if I can't go to Hawaii, I want to go somewhere that has a strong community and strong social justice.


8:05


* And that really helped individuals from varying backgrounds. Coming back to I mean,


8:13


* knowing my mom as a 30 year old as a second career to college-to law school,


8:20


* I mean-making sure that they had a place and you know,


8:25


* the Academic Support Program here at USF was that it definitely felt like, you know,


8:28


* I say USF law is more of a mom and pop shop like we all know everyone in the law school campus by their first name.


8:34


* It is definitely a place where yes, I teach, you know, legal structure and reading and how to write for essays and exams and stuff.


8:42


* But it's also a place that you can come to when you're just having a rough time and you just need that support and help because,


8:48


* you know, law school takes a lot out of you and life continues to happen and you need to know how to manage all of that.


8:55


* And so I felt like as ASP in USF in particular was the spot for me, which it was. It was amazing experience.


9:02


* But then right after I graduated from law school, I took the bar in July, which is when the bar is, you know, it normally is.


9:09


* And then we moved in August and my husband wanted to go back and get a doctorate at Harvard.


9:16


* And so all of a sudden we're moving and I don't have the bar.


9:21


* I mean, because you don't find out until November if you passed the California bar, let alone, you know, I didn't take the bar in Massachusetts.


9:25


* Here I am. How do I find a job? It's not where I clerked for a judge.


9:32


* This is not where I worked or did all my internships.


9:35


* And I'm just trying to make my, you know, my way through very much of an old boys network in the nineties.


9:38


* And so immigration, because it's federal law kind of kind of not fell in my lap,


9:45


* but I thought, "You know what? I got a good education at USF.


9:49


* I know how to read, I know how to write. I could figure this out." And there was a position open at the Greater Boston Legal Services.


9:53


* And because I went to Kamehameha Schools and the Bishop estate, they actually helped to pay for my law school career.


9:59


* So I didn't have the heavy debts that most people do.


10:06


* As long as I went home every summer and taught like Hawaiian culture and seventh and eighth grade


10:09


* students who did not get into Kamehameha Schools leadership values and who they are as native Hawaiians.


10:15


* I did a program every summer. If I did that for four years, they basically paid for my law school education.


10:20


* And so I was able to really go back and give back and have a job that I wasn't looking for,


10:27


* a big firm or anything like that, but really work with with individuals.


10:32


* And so the Immigrant Battered Women's Project through Greater Boston Legal Services was


10:36


* really a wonderful spot for me because I could take women straight from a shelter and help them,


10:41


* you know, kind of navigate the immigration system, which can be very, to me, abusive.


10:48


* And so I could really help them with that.


10:54


* But I start to realize partway through, I really need the Massachusetts bar so that I could actually help them with their family law issues,


10:56


* which is state issues, because by then I knew I passed the California bar, so I took the the Mass. bar in February.


11:05


* The bar's only offered in July and February. So they do the Mass. bar in February and then Hawaii bar in July.


11:11


* So I took three bars in one year. I told everyone, never do that.


11:16


* That is crazy. Don't do that. That's just too much on you.


11:19


* But I didn't have kids yet, so it was like the right time to do it all and be able to. Because Hawaii.


11:23


* The reason why I was like, Hawaii was you can never waive in, you know, later.


11:28


* So in case I ever want to go home or my mom had her own practice like, you know, work with her, that was the only way I could do that.


11:31


* So that's partly why I did it. But immigration was something lovely, like kind of fell into my lap.


11:37


* But it also was because it was dealing with women. I felt it helped with my women's studies.


11:43


* It kind of just kept adding something new. Or I had the criminology, the women's studies, and now this immigration part, which was so amazing.


11:47


* And there's a very diverse immigrant community in the Greater Boston area.


11:53


* So it was really interesting. I really felt like I had to learn how to work with not just clients, but a lot of my clients didn't speak English,


11:59


* but it was very like even if I knew Japanese, my clients would be Chinese, Vietnamese, Cambodian, Khmer, you know.


12:06


* So the language I really actually had to learn how to work with interpreters so that I would be looking at the client themselves,


12:14


* even though we weren't speaking the same language so that we were connecting.


12:21


* So they weren't connecting just with the interpreter, but they were connecting with me because I'm going to take you through the whole process.


12:25


* So as a totally different type of experience. COLLYNN: That is completely full circle.


12:30


* And it's so inspiring to hear. Heidi, as a student participating in the Academic Support Program and now as a assistant professor,


12:35


* she actually is the co-director of the Academic Support Program.


12:45


* Would you be able to tell us more about that? HEIDI: So the Academic Support Program really is, you know, this is probably, to me, USF at its finest,


12:50


* the larger USF, having the Jesuit mission that really talks about diversifying and really being....


12:58


* So it's not just choosing students who are of diverse backgrounds and not giving them support,


13:05


* it's actually choosing students and really putting their money and support behind them so that they are successful and can stay.


13:10


* So that's part of for me, I think it's really important. So we choose students from all backgrounds.


13:19


* So I've had students right now who are DACA. I have students who are foster youth.


13:24


* I have, I think every single one of mine except one is a first generation law student.


13:28


* But from all over I have a kids from right now, from Georgia, from South Carolina, from Ohio, from Texas, everywhere.


13:33


* I have a transgender student,


13:41


* so I have the gamut of every kind of law student you can think of and giving them this amazing experience of not just coming to USF,


13:43


* to be a lawyer, but also like what other areas of law could be of interest to them.


13:52


* You know, I've been here eight years now, and so when I started,


13:58


* I remember we had a student who all she wanted to do, she was from Harlem and she was raised by a single mom.


14:01


* And, you know, the education system there is a lottery and that kind of thing.


14:08


* And she really just wants to change the education system.


14:12


* And so her first job out of law school was working for the U.S. Department of Education in Harlem.


14:14


* And partly because she had a younger sister who was going to go through the system herself, and she wanted to make sure that it was better.


14:18


* You know, another student I had, who was the oldest of three parents were pickers in the Fresno Valley, sixth grade education.


14:24


* She just wanted to do labor law, you know, she just wanted to change something. She just saw injustice


14:32


* where she lived and for her parents and she just labor law in Fresno Valley. Like you don't


14:37


* need-sorry-a white savior but you have people who actually see a problem and fix it.


14:41


* And that's really what lawyers are, right? We are problem solvers and we try to fix things. The good ones at least.


14:46


* And so that's what I really like, you know, and you can do that within your own community.


14:53


* So but we can only do that if you have the training that you need and the support to, you know, because law school can be tough.


14:56


* You can definitely make yourself feel a little bit like this imposter syndrome of, you know, should I really be here?


15:03


* Am I smart enough?


15:09


* Especially if you don't know, you've never met a lawyer before, you know. Or the only lawyer you've met was through immigration?


15:10


* Because your family situation or family law, because you're in foster youth or what have you.


15:16


* So giving them an aspect of other lawyers that might have inspired them to come to law school, but then other areas of law, you know,


15:21


* that could be something amazing, like, you know, whether it's business transactions or M&A or what have you, give them exposure to all of that.


15:28


* So that's pretty wonderful.


15:35


* COLLYNN: Your goal and focus within pursuing in law, had it always been a focus to bring it to the mainland and work within the mainland?


15:36


* HEIDI: Not technically I mean, I think because my first experience in law was in Hawaii and looking at what was happening in Hawaii and specifically,


15:44


* I always thought I was going to go to law school in Hawaii, but also practice in Hawaii.


15:53


* And I think what I ended up doing is kind of morphing as you kind of went along because I didn't know I was going to be married,


15:57


* right? And then kind of having to balance that out with taking turns with your partner.


16:02


* And so instead of him going all the way through and getting his PhD or his doctorate or whatever, for me it was like, okay,


16:07


* we're going to take turns and you're going to get your master's, I'll get my law school career, and then you'll go get your doctorate.


16:13


* So basically living off of one income and being students for forever for a very long time.


16:19


* But part of that for us was also because we wanted to make sure that, you know,


16:25


* we didn't know if we were going to end up in California, Hawaii or Massachusetts.


16:29


* Those are like the three big areas that we had kind of had our lives.


16:33


* I think once we had kids, we were more into it and, you know, thought, Oh, but we should definitely move back west,


16:37


* you know, just because we really I never thought I was going to raise kids not in Hawaii and Maui in particular.


16:42


* I think that was like a complete shock to me. And so becoming an academic was critical because I would have the summers off so that


16:48


* you could take the kids home to Hawaii and you could come back and forth and stuff.


16:55


* So just to give them that experience of growing up with all the cousins and everyone around,


16:58


* because at that time, my brothers all had kids and stuff.


17:03


* So it was kind of one of those fun things to bring them home. But yeah, I really also thought like I would do... when I was at USF,


17:08


* we were allowed to take classes at other law schools if that subject was not taught at USF.


17:15


* So when I went, I took a several courses at Berkeley, like water law in particular, that we didn't have at that time.


17:20


* And I did that because there's so many issues on water in Hawaii.


17:28


* And so that part of it, I think when you're asking about how your culture influences an area of law that I was very interested in,


17:32


* I didn't know what water law was. But I knew that with all the plantation systems in Hawaii and the diverting of all the water,


17:38


* that it was critical that I understand that. Especially in the nineties, as more laws were coming out and things like that.


17:47


* I think it helped me to understand this resource that we have that really it's hard to explain in the mainland,


17:53


* you know, everything in Hawaii starts with wai


18:02


* "W a i" is the, you know, the the word for water in Hawaii.


18:06


* And so a lot of our place names, right, like Waikīkī, Waiheʻe, Waiāhole


18:10


* Why, you know Wahiawā, like Waiʻanae, like they're all named after water resources.


18:14


* And what is in those water resources, right? So it's very, very important.


18:20


* In fact, the word for wealth in Hawaii is wai wai, right?


18:24


* So water has always been part of us. So much so that in the language, you know,


18:28


* so for is it possessionals or possessives? Where you said "my" and "I" right? The word for-there's two different


18:33


* types of saying "my," so "ko'u" is like what everybody has so "ko'u maka", we all have eyes,


18:41


* we all have ko'u ihu, we all have nose. But when you had like a cup like that would be kaʻu instead of ko'u.


18:49


* So we'd be like, that's my cup, you know that that would be a totally different thing.


18:55


* But because not everybody had a cup or not everybody had it wasn't part of your like body or your soul.


18:59


* But, you know, in how you say water is "ko'uwai"


19:05


* So that is ko'uwai. That's who we are. That's part of something.


19:09


* Everybody had water, right? In a communal system. That's what it is.


19:13


* So when you talk about diverting water and not using the water system through,


19:16


* like the way we did agriculture or through Ahupuaʻa systems and diverting and taking it away from even going into the ocean,


19:21


* which people think, oh, what a waste. It actually feeds our fish and it feeds the reefs and it feeds the way it was all done.


19:29


* It kind of has destroyed a lot of that. And so water law was something that I was really interested in.


19:36


* And Hawaii, you know, being part of the Ninth Circuit with, you know, Washington, Oregon and California,


19:41


* we follow those same laws so kind of understanding where it was going in that timeframe.


19:47


* So I think that part for me was definitely in law school kind of thinking I was going to make my way back to Hawaii.


19:51


* And it was also just like looking where my husband was going to get a job and what he was going to do.


19:57


* And so just balancing that out.


20:01


* So in my mind, I'm still just, you know, I'm still abroad just waiting to go home when I still consider home to be Maui,


20:03


* although I technically, I guess haven't lived there, you know, since I was 18, even though I go home every summer.


20:10


* COLLYNN: Yeah!


20:15


* You grew up within law in Maui, in Hawaii, through your mom and what you've shared being within the Asian-American Pacific Islander community,


20:15


* how was that experience for you coming to San Francisco and coming to USF?


20:26


* HEIDI: So in Hawaii, like, you know, I think everyone around me is... we're all pretty mixed race, you know.


20:32


* And so it's different when you come to like the mainland and you're like, wow,


20:39


* there's like...although San Francisco's way more diverse than other areas.


20:43


* So I went to UC Irvine in the eighties. Just imagine.


20:46


* And so I'm just saying it was a different place. So that


20:51


* part was a little bit different with my mom, I think just having a respect and love for different cultures.


20:55


* I think too, like in Hawaii, you know, I wouldn't be who I am without, I guess technically sugar.


21:01


* Even though I get grouchy about that because I feel like sugar is what caused annexation and you know whatever in Hawaii so.


21:06


* But if my family didn't come, you know, Chinese Japanese, my family didn't come to work in the plantation,


21:13


* I wouldn't be here because of every part of my background.


21:20


* So there's a love-hate sometimes about it, but it also is who I am.


21:23


* So I think just embracing everything and everything that Hawaii touches gets better.


21:27


* Like, you know, the plate lunch is a good example, right? You know, you get the two scoops of rice and your meat and your mac salad and what have you.


21:32


* And I just feel like Japanese food in Japan may not be exactly the same way the Japanese food is in Hawaii or, you know, Chinese food.


21:39


* So we kind of make everything a little bit Hawaii style, which is kind of lovely.


21:46


* And I like that. It's some of that little Hawaii flavor, you know?


21:50


* And I just I feel like there's a graciousness and a hospitality that comes with being from Hawaii.


21:53


* I don't know if it's because of necessarily our culture,


21:58


* which I definitely feel like there's that part of me with the whole type of hospitality side of me.


22:01


* You know, it could be also remnants or parts of the tourist industry where you are that person and welcoming and stuff.


22:07


* But I do have a sense of like, you know, the first thing I'm going to do when I meet you is like,


22:13


* you know, give you a hug and "Hi!" and want to make that connection and,


22:16


* you know, and try to- if someone's from Hawaii in particular, I'm like, oh, what high school did you go to?


22:21


* And trying to make a connection to like see how we are...we must be family! You know, like within 2 seconds you figure out,


22:25


* oh, you know, you were connected, you know, that kind of thing. So it's always looking for that connection, I think.


22:31


* COLLYNN: Let's talk more about your time as a student at the University of San Francisco.


22:38


* Are there fond memories, specific involvement that you had outside of law and outside of classes?


22:42


* What was nostalgic for you in being at USF?


22:51


* HEIDI: Oh, I mean, first of all, USF, I think, like I said before,


22:54


* it's like a mom and pops up. It's such a small community and I can definitely say that just because


22:58


* I took like three classes over at Berkeley too, where you just it's a lot bigger.


23:03


* And so, you know, you walk the halls here and you will know everyone pretty much and you know everyone by their first name.


23:09


* And there's something lovely about that, especially when you're in law school and it's so much and so intense.


23:14


* But I was really fortunate, you know, with being a part of ASP back then was amazing because it's an instant community.


23:20


* But also I got to do such great volunteer work, externships internships.


23:27


* I worked at the Asian Law Caucus. I mean, we're talking about these are the guys who, you know, did the Korematsu case like, you know what I mean?


23:32


* And back then it was like at the gates of Chinatown on off Bush and Grant.


23:38


* And just an amazing experience for me. I worked, you know, very closely with Audee Kochiyama,


23:43


* who is Yuri Kochiyama's daughter who I didn't even know at the time when we were were working together.


23:50


* And after I graduated from law school she was like, Oh, you're moving to Boston like, you know, connect with my mom.


23:55


* She's in Harlem. And then I started realizing like, Oh, my-you mean the Yuri Kochiyama?


24:01


* Like, what?! Like the woman who was there with Malcolm X, what?


24:06


* You know, so it was such an intense experience.


24:09


* And so Yuri would have me come down from Boston all the time and dance hula at these fundraisers that we would raise money for legal defense,


24:12


* work for people. So it was just an amazing experience and I feel so fortunate that I got to be a part of that.


24:20


* You know, also, at USF, we have clinics, amazing clinics.


24:26


* And so I was able to do a civil and then it being like a civil rights clinic


24:29


* that was amazing.


24:33


* Back in the days where we actually got to go to court, an experience that I never thought I was going to be like an advocate that went to court,


24:33


* kind of law I thought I'd be like wills and trusts like mediation because that's kind of my role in the family.


24:41


* Like, you know, everybody get along. Let's all be friends, you know. And I didn't know what kind of advocate I would be.


24:46


* But, you know, with moot court and with an intensive advocacy program,


24:53


* which we have over at the law school, it really shows like, oh, actually, I'm, I'm actually okay with this.


24:56


* I'm pretty good at this.


25:01


* So you can kind of like test your limits of what you think, what you think a lawyer is and what you know and what they should be.


25:02


* So that was really exciting. And then I also got to intern with a USF judge like so that was really cool too.


25:08


* In Alameda County, I did a program called Street Law, which is...we don't have it anymore, which kind of is sad.


25:13


* Some students are talking about bringing it back,


25:19


* but we would actually go into high schools and you would have a professor at the law school kind of coordinate law students to go into like,


25:21


* you know, I was at Castleman High School in East Oakland and here I am my first day of school and you're trying to get everybody's attention.


25:30


* It was quite interesting, but we really ended up...my first day I was like, okay, what are you guys interested in?


25:37


* They're, you know, they're juniors, I think at the time in 1996.


25:42


* And I'm thinking, gosh, they must be like adults now. But, you know, 1996, I'm like, what, are you interested in?


25:45


* You know, they're just getting their driver's licenses. So they're like,


25:50


* "So can the cops just stop us and, like, look in our glove compartments and do all these things?"


25:53


* "Okay, so we'll do some crim pro fourth amendment" and then like, "Okay, well, you know, our landlord does this, this and this.


25:57


* Can you do that?" So then "Okay, we'll do some housing law."


26:02


* And then they had some issues with like family stuff like, my dad doesn't do this or pay for that or whatever.


26:05


* And sometimes we do some family law. So we created this whole curriculum for this semester based upon their interest.


26:10


* And I got to say, they were so engaged that at one point I think the school was on like a strike or we didn't open and the kids were like,


26:14


* Can we just meet at the McDonalds down the street? I was like, so great, you know?


26:22


* And I just remember thinking that was such an...


26:25


* So I think partly for that, those are those little experiences where I started to, you know, I was a tutor as well at the law school.


26:28


* So my second and third year I tutor civil procedure. I think those little teaching experiences.


26:34


* And then like I said, during the summers where I'd go and teach native Hawaiian seventh and eighth graders,


26:39


* kind of start me thinking about maybe I would teach in the future.


26:44


* So that's kind of how I came back to USF, you know,


26:47


* after practicing and then having children finding it to be a place where ASP had an opening and I was like, Wow,


26:52


* that's the one thing I would actually come back to,


26:59


* because it was almost like this full circle of coming back and giving back to a program that helped raise me and help me.


27:00


* And it's all in the family, you know? And so being able to make that community and for this next generation of law students.


27:08


* So it's been a really wonderful experience. COLLYNN: Incredible.


27:16


* Thank you. HEIDI: I can tell you a funny story


27:19


* while you're thinking. COLLYNN: Yes! HEIDI: Okay. So when I was in law school, I just thinking about this, when I was in law school,


27:22


* I think we were just talking about like, how do you want to be addressed, right? Mr. Ms.


27:28


* Or whatever. And we're kind of leaning a little not towards that anymore with, you know, Ms. you know, with pronouns.


27:31


* And so we're kind of leaning more towards first name, right?


27:38


* Which is wonderful. But back in the day it was like I was Ms. Ho, right?


27:41


* And, and I had a very easy last name. So my friends, you know, who sat on either side of me were Sujata Neurgaonker and Mandana Masumi.


27:45


* So just say like they had "name insurance" because professors didn't technically know how to pronounce it that name.


27:55


* So Ms. Ho was called I remember once like three times three days in a row towards class I was


28:03


* called on and I do wait like because they wouldn't call Mandana and they wouldn't call on Sujata.


28:08


* So I just like I would tease them like yeah, they had name insurance, you know.


28:14


* So nowadays, I think it's different now if we're going with first names.


28:17


* COLLYNN: Yeah. How do you feel that transition's been?


28:21


* HEIDI: You know I'm not sure how it's been enforced full force but I think that's the right way to go.


28:24


* Yeah. Not everybody's there. It's not like a mandate that we have to do that.


28:32


* But I think it's a way in which we can meet students where they're at, which is great.


28:35


* COLLYNN: Mhm. Oh great. So you have a great perspective of being a student as well as an alumni and a faculty member.


28:40


* I'm curious if you could tell us more of what you feel sets apart USF law students and lawyers?


28:50


* What qualities and characteristics do you see sets us apart from the rest?


28:58


* HEIDI: So for me, I think you know, specifically with ASP and USF as well, I think it's that community, right?


29:04


* It is literally a family. And so I think that aspect of it, you know, I can call someone for example, the other day a student came in and said,


29:12


* you know, I think I want my want to do civil rights work and I'm not sure.


29:21


* And I'm like, okay, I can call someone who was an ASP alum from 2010 or something,


29:25


* who's working in the U.S Department, you know, doing civil rights work and, and say, can you meet with so-and-so?


29:31


* And then they met for coffee and they can have, you know, I mean,


29:35


* so that availability of almost I don't even know if you want to call it nepotism but of some sort.


29:38


* But you can you have this larger family where, you know, I can call several judges who are ASP back and say,


29:43


* "Hey, you need a unit, can you take someone for us to be your law clerk so they can get some experience this summer?"


29:51


* You know, there's this over loving generosity.


29:57


* It would be really surprising if someone, even with whether ASP or not in the alumni,


30:00


* didn't get a call from a current student who would say, "No, I can't take you to coffee." That'd be amazing.


30:05


* I would I would be shocked if you told me something like that, because honestly,


30:11


* there's a way in which I feel like those who come to us just have a heart in a way that...and they want to give back.


30:14


* And they really care about the next generation coming and stuff like that.


30:21


* So I feel like for me and I, you know, maybe that is at other places, I don't know.


30:26


* But as a person who went to undergrad and felt like I had a mentor when I was-not undergraduate-law school, I had a law school mentor.


30:30


* I felt like people took me in and tried to help me.


30:38


* And then I just feel like that's just the natural way that we are, you know, we want to give back and care for other people.


30:41


* So I think that larger community, seeing that you went to USF to kind of open some doors, especially here in San Francisco, you know.


30:47


* COLLYNN: I definitely agree in that way as well. I think it's so special, something very special that USF is the people.


30:54


* Could you tell us more about certain spaces that you've found or even avenues that you've found to be able to express your culture?


31:00


* I think you mentioned earlier that through your fundraiser.


31:09


* You did some hula. Yeah. Were there other specific memories or things that you associated being able to tap into that?


31:12


* HEIDI: Yeah. And you know, at the law school, probably not as much just because I didn't really know any other student who was from Hawaii.


31:20


* I mean, we do have I know the undergrad level and USF have a larger community, but not so much in the law school.


31:28


* I think we have like one or two every year and they'll come in, I'll take them in that, that type of thing.


31:35


* But it's kind of to make a bigger, larger community to do that area of law.


31:40


* But I was lucky enough to go home every summer, you know,


31:44


* so I felt like I had that connection to Hawaii to see what was going on and things like that.


31:46


* And as a faculty member, probably not as much as just dancing hula at an event or something like that.


31:51


* And I probably should do more as far as like, you know, sharing with what's going on in Hawaii now or something like that.


31:57


* But I haven't done that. COLLYNN: It's okay. Still time and opportunity.


32:03


* HEIDI: Exactly! You're making me think. COLLYNN: If you could tell me more about how you feel


32:07


* education and culture at USF has changed since you were a student here.


32:14


* HEIDI: You know what I can say is when I was here, you know, we're talking in the 1990s, it was very...way more men.


32:20


* And I don't know that that was just with the culture of the law schools have been across the country anyway.


32:30


* You know, white men. I think I had two women who were my professors back in the day for at least the substantive courses.


32:35


* So it was, you know, different. Now, I feel like it's a little more diverse and more women and teaching.


32:43


* So that's that's been a change. I think also the way education-wise back in the day, you know, was definitely very much Socratic method.


32:51


* I think it still is to a degree. And you would just have one final exam and that was your grade for the semester.


32:59


* So there's a way in which, you know, you would come in in August and you start law school and, you know, and there's...so undergrad, right?


33:07


* It's very much, you know, you kind of just you go to class, you take notes, and then you kind of regurgitate those notes.


33:13


* Sorry. I mean, if that's not...kind of simplifying it. But it's very passive learning,


33:19


* you just kind of take it in and then you just put that back on there and, you know, on an exam.


33:23


* And then you do really well. In law school, the expectation is you come to class like knowing,


33:27


* doing all the work ahead of time so that you're coming to class so that you can have a


33:35


* discussion about it so that you're almost at that not the same level of your professor,


33:39


* but that you can have a conversation about it.


33:43


* So it's way more active learning where you're given hypotheticals and you talk about this and you're kind of,


33:45


* and you're discussing it and you keep changing the facts.


33:52


* Or what if that person was a 12 year old versus what was this person was, you know, Black?


33:55


* So you kind of keep changing the facts as you go to decide if the law-how the law was implicated and stuff.


34:00


* And it's a different kind of taking notes even,


34:07


* so sometimes I remember the first semester a lot of students are like, "It's like a great conversation!"


34:10


* Because it's the students and the professors and they're just having this great conversation.


34:15


* It's weird to do note taking like how do I take notes?


34:19


* You know, it's this active learning. And then really I think when you were in undergrad, there's a lot of times where you just like


34:23


* prepping for class or just just going to class, you know, and then taking notes and then regurgitating.


34:29


* But in law school, it's really about the after stuff.


34:35


* So like prepping for class is like a third of the work you have to do.


34:39


* And you know, it's after class, like putting your notes together, synthesizing, outlining, memorizing,


34:42


* writing, rewriting, because all of this is based on a timed writing exam of a different hypothetical.


34:49


* So it might be not something you talked about in class, but a variation of that because all the gray areas that you're really discussing.


34:56


* And so it's a different kind of I guess, teaching and stuff so that we still had that in law school when I was there.


35:02


* But your only grade was the actual final.


35:08


* And so I know like in the fall I remember just going, oh my gosh, what happened?


35:12


* And there's a curve and you know, so you're just like, what happened? Like, I always had great grades.


35:17


* What is this? You know, this is not what I thought I was going to get and partly is because, you know, you just didn't learn how to write.


35:21


* So I think now at the law school, we're doing a lot more skills based learning, like learning how to take notes,


35:26


* how to read a case, how to brief, how to do an actual hypothetical or exam, how to do a multiple choice question.


35:34


* Now, the bar is a 50% multiple choice, so even though we may not do it in class itself,


35:42


* or your class might not have multiple choice because the bar exam has it making sure you know the skills of how


35:47


* to cover the answers and read the question and come up with the answer first before you look at the answer.


35:52


* So you don't confuse yourself... like an actual system for multiple choice.


35:57


* So and we're also giving like midterms some classes or even doing weekly hypotheticals,


36:01


* having students write just to kind of practice writing, right? Get your muscle memory of your brain and your writing skills up to date.


36:06


* So that part is a little different than what when I went to law school, the education part,


36:12


* I think the other thing that makes USF really stand out and I see this in internships in particular as well,


36:17


* is that we really put a lot into our first year legal research and writing program.


36:23


* I mean, those professors are amazing. They're all lawyers, which at some schools they're not.


36:27


* That could be like 3L, somebody else teaching it. Right. So it's a full year.


36:32


* It's not a semester which most other schools are semester. And it's really a deep dive into researching.


36:36


* It's a really deep dive into writing and how we write memorandums. And so I think when you they go into that first summer law school internship,


36:42


* they really do stand out because of our writing program, in particular at USF.


36:51


* COLLYNN: What are your approaches or even values that you like to incorporate within your class settings?


36:57


* And what kind of lessons are you hoping your students are gaining from you?


37:03


* HEIDI: Yeah, I think when I start, it's really about:


37:07


* You were chosen. You are here. Because there's a lot of this imposter syndrome with a lot of my students.


37:12


* So first, I'll be like, you know, congratulations. Amazing accomplishment.


37:19


* You know, three sets of eyes had to approve you. This is not a mistake.


37:24


* You are in the right place. So I really try to start it off that way.


37:28


* And then we also talk about a lot of, you know, just the skills that we're going to learn.


37:32


* Like I said, you know, it's not about what your LSAT score was in my mind.


37:36


* It's not about what undergrad you went to or your GPA at that undergrad.


37:42


* My students, you know, it's a mix. You know, you can have students who've gone through community college and then had to transfer as students.


37:48


* You had to work 40 hours a week plus just to pay for their school.


37:55


* We had students have to take care of an elderly family member.


37:59


* There's a lot of reasons that people come back after several years as people who take a little bit longer through community college, you know.


38:02


* So for me, that journey is just as much a part of that, right?


38:09


* So for them. So just validating that because I think there's parts of them that like, "Oh,


38:14


* I'm not the traditional who went through a four year college and I'm here."


38:18


* Right? "And I know everything-what I need to know." And it's more about like, your effort that you put in.


38:21


* And so in my class, what we do is we meet weekly and they'll go to their substantive courses that they have for every law student has to go to.


38:28


* And when they come to my class, really, it's like putting what they've learned academically that week into some kind of writing or hypothetical.


38:35


* So for example, you know, if they went to a torts class that week in the first week of school or so, then they're learning intentional torts, you know.


38:43


* So by the second week of school, you know, I'm like, "Okay, so you learned assault and battery.


38:51


* So I'm going to tell you this story. So this neighbor comes over and he said..." Because that's what happens, right, when you're a lawyer,


38:55


* when someone comes into your office, they're not telling you, "Well, there was an attractive nuisance in the backyard."


39:01


* They're going to say "There was a pool..." Right? They're not going to know the legalese terms of things of where you want to go to or what


39:05


* area of law they're going to just tell you a problem and they're coming to see if you can fix it.


39:11


* And you got to figure out what law and how structure you want to put it together.


39:15


* And that's what law school is, right? These exams are problems, basically these hypotheticals that they put out there.


39:18


* And can you apply the law, what area of law that you're going to need to use for that?


39:24


* That's what the bar exam is as well. It's going to be a fact pattern and you're going have to figure out, "Oh, this is contract law.


39:28


* This is not..." You know, and so you're gonna have to figure that out. And so my job is for them to, like, not see it for the first time on your exam.


39:34


* Right? Practice it. So let's see this. See this hypothetical.


39:41


* Now, how do you apply it? They're like, "Oh, well, this is the rule of law, because I read it."


39:45


* Well, anybody could Google it. Like, why did you go to law school? You came here to learn how to apply, you know,


39:49


* that law to these sets of facts and then analyze it and analyzing meaning, really bringing something else.


39:55


* And that's why I say is their superpower. Your superpower is your common sense, that your life that you've had,


40:02


* your background, that you've had, whatever school you whatever...to bring that to the table and to share that.


40:08


* But what happens sometimes when you come to law school, you think you have to completely learn new language, right?


40:15


* Because "legalese." You have to learn how to read again. So you think you don't have anything to bring.


40:20


* And really, it's that common sense is your secret weapon.


40:24


* So making sure you're learning how to use that in your analysis when you're writing and stuff and then practicing,


40:27


* you know how to do timed writing and stuff. But that's kind of what I'm doing.


40:32


* I'm really just like, I call it fact school.


40:35


* Like you go to law school, this is like fact school, like we're going to give you a bunch of facts and can you analyze these facts.


40:37


* COLLYNN: Wow. Thank you. How do you hope your story and this podcast will evolve in the future and where do you hope it goes


40:43


* Towards? HEIDI: I have no idea, you guys, I'm so excited to be... this is my first podcast ever.


40:52


* And you know, I just, like I said, I feel like I'm going to hopefully get some cool points with my kids like,


40:59


* you know, and I was teasing earlier that, you know, they listen to Radiolab and all these really cool ones.


41:03


* I'm like, you know, if we're at that caliber, I think I'm going to be okay.


41:08


* And I'm just kidding. COLLYNN: I think you are going to be cool.


41:12


* You could be on that caliber. This has been such a pleasure speaking to you, learning more about you and all the great work that you've done at USF.


41:15


* Thank you so much for coming on to our APAN Podcast and sharing your journey, your story with us.


41:25


* HEIDI: Thank you for having me. I'm so glad I crossed Fulton Street.


41:31


* COLLYNN: Yes. THEME MUSIC/COLLYNN: Thank you again to our guest, Heidi Ho.


41:34


* Thank you to Kristine Alarcon, Michael Robison, Matilda Tavares and Chadwick Woodard for producing.


41:43


* Thanks to Miranda Morris for letting us record here at KUSF.


41:50


* And thank you for listening to the APAN podcast.


41:53


* We'll see you next time. Go Dons!


41:56