Date: Tue, 01 Jul 1997 16:27:40 +1030
From:John Foyster foyster@ntmrc.ncver.edu.au
Subject: The Pentateuch
To: jco@usfca.edu

Way back in February when this list was just beginning, Greg Johnson
wrote:

> I hate to throw cold water on the idea of THE CROSSWICKS HORROR being
> published, but the possibility seems increasingly remote.  The remaining two
> novels of the quintet were written and revised (more than once) over a decade
> ago, and it appears likely that they won't be published at all, since they
> have many times been superseded by more recent, more "realistic," and more
> marketable books by JCO.

In the last week there have been several responses to an initial
revisiting of this theme by "Donald Barthel".
I happen to think that the novels in the quintet are central to JCO's
work, and JCO must once (at least) have thought the same thing, when she
wrote in an afterword which appeared in only some editions of MYSTERIES
OF WINTERTHURN:

"To choose idiosyncratic but not distracting 'narrators' to recite the
histories; to organize the voluminous materials in patterns alien to my
customary way of thinking and writing; to 'see' the world in terms of
heredity and family destiny and the vicissitudes of Time (for all five
novels are secretly fables of the American family); to explore
historically authentic crimes against women, children, and the poor; to
create, and to identify with, heroes and heroines whose existence would
be problematic in the clinical, unkind, and one might almost say,
fluorescent-lit atmosphere of present-day fiction - these factors proved
irresistible. The opportunity might not be granted me again, I thought,
to create a highly complex structure in which individual novels
(themselves complex, made up of 'books') functioned as chapters or units
in an immense design: America as viewed through the prismatic lens of
its most popular genres." (etc.etc.)

It seems that the opportunity is not at present being granted in any
full sense, although obviously there are SOME people around who believe
in the desirability of getting the whole quintet into print.

John Foyster
Adelaide
SOUTH AUSTRALIA



From: Cyranomish@aol.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:47:49 -0400 (EDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Double Delight

Has anyone noted the similarities of Terrence's ordeal with that of poor old
 Edwin in Oates' 1979 novel Cybele?  (Greg J., I'll bet you're one of the few
 folks in this room who has read Cybele).



From: smancin1@ix.netcom.com
Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 16:52:44 -0500 (CDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: Double Delight

On 07/02/97 15:47:49 you wrote:
>
>Has anyone noted the similarities of Terrence's ordeal with that of poor old
>Edwin in Oates' 1979 novel Cybele?  (Greg J., I'll bet you're one of the few
>folks in this room who has read Cybele).
>
>
Count me in as a Cybele reader.  I read it in the late seventies.  Would you 
care to refresh my memory by making some comparisons?

smb  



From: Cyranomish@aol.com
Date:  Wed, 2 Jul 1997 20:05:38 -0400 (EDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: oates on enemies

I read the math professor's 6/19/97 note with interest.  I too have had
 disappointing work experiences (in which I fancied myself a character in a
 Joyce Carol Oates story). Was I discovering new enemies, or was it simply
 time to move on?  Regarding your situation: your colleagues might have
 admired your impartiality, but impartiality, & fairness might not have been
 the qualities they sought in a department chair.  It's only human that each
 side might have wanted an ally to head the math department, and it doesn't
 sound like you were taking sides.  It's always good, when reading Oates, to
 note who is saying those pithy sayings: they may not represent the author's
point of view.  Did anyone read that terrific Oates story "Faithless" in the
 Kenyon Review last winter?  It blew my socks off, and I'm going to use it in
 my adult ed. course on Oates next month.     

          Cyrano of Boston
       Cyrano  



To: jco@usfca.edu
From:  Gary Couzens Gjcouzens@btinternet.com
Subject: Cybele
Date:Thu, 03 Jul 97 07:25:37 +0100 ( + )

Cybele is to me the least memorable of those of JCO's novels that I've read.
 Literally  so - I know for a fact I've read it (it's in my bookshelf) but I can't
 remember anything of it!

Even the novels I liked less than others - e.g. Angel of Light (which somehow
 fell flat for me) and Childwold - I can still remember some scenes,
 characters etc. even years later.

Gary Couzens



Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 06:54:13 -0400
From:  "Dr. Cynthia J. Hallett" challett@jax-inter.net
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: "Faithless"

I, for one, have not read it---YET!
But I've already made a note to go to the
campus library on Monday (after holiday)
and do so!  thanks for the suggestion; 
"Faithless" sounds like the sort of story
I relish reading and using in a classroom.

-- 
      Cynthia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Cynthia J. Hallett  
   challett@jax.inter.net
   http://www.fccj.cc.fl.us/~challett
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''
Whoever undertakes to set him[her]self  
up as a judge of Truth and Knowledge is 
shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods. 
                       -Albert Einstein



From: RJohn713@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:37:40 -0400 (EDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: Double Delight

Yes, I've read CYBELE, though not in more than a decade....  Yes, Terence's
obsession not only resembles Edwin's, but also Ian's in AMERICAN APPETITES,
Corky's in WHAT I LIVE FOR,  Jesse's in WONDERLAND (re. Reva Denk), Jules's
 in THEM (re. Nadine Greene), and that of countless heroes in JCO's short
 stories.  Male obsession with a female love/sex object is one of those
 repeated themes in her work.  In DOUBLE DELIGHT, I found it less convincing
 than in the past works; compared to the amazing erotic scenes about Jules
 and Nadine or Jesse and Reva, the "obsessive" passages seem to have been
 written with far less passion or conviction.  Or so I felt.

Greg J.



Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:26:32 -0400 (EDT)
From: Karen Gaffney kgaffney@odin.english.udel.edu
To: jco discussion group jco@usfca.edu
Subject: today's ny times


hi. i just wanted to mention that jco has a piece in the op-ed section of 
today's new york times about the tyson fight. she's quite a fan. 

if you're interested you can access it on the web at www.nytimes.com
you just need to think of a login name and a password that no one else has.

:) karen



Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:09:08 -0400
To: jco@usfca.edu
From: cafuller@EVE.ASSUMPTION.EDU (Catherine Fuller)
Subject: Re: today's ny times

>hi. i just wanted to mention that jco has a piece in the op-ed section of
>today's new york times about the tyson fight. she's quite a fan.
>
>if you're interested you can access it on the web at www.nytimes.com
>you just need to think of a login name and a password that no one else has.
>
>:) karen

Karen, thanks so much for letting us know about the Tyson article.  I have
it printed out.  Have enjoyed your screen comments about our favorite
author so far.  Thanks again,  Cathy Fuller



From: Cyranomish@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:21:45 -0400 (EDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: new member

Majordomo@lovelace.usfca.edu

Hello, I've been reading JCO for 26 years but doing e-mail for a mere 14
hours. I don't know what the heck I'm doing here.  Am I on?
Cyrano



Subject: Re: new member
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 97 23:37:19 -0400
From:  t-hulslander t-hulslander@top.monad.net
To: jco@usfca.edu

Hi, Cyrano-

We hear (read) you!  You are on!



Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 09:55:19 +0200
From: Norman and Deanna Nelson 
To:  jco@usfca.edu
 Subject:  JCO in NYT

Thank you, Karen, for the NYT tip.  Has anyone ever read ON BOXING?  I
bought it for my husband because he boxes and is also a JCO fan.  I read
it and was so impressed by JCO's metaphysical insights into the sport. 
It was a fascinating read, made much more powerful by her strong prose.

Deanna



From: Cyranomish@aol.com
Subject: jco
Date:  Sun, 6 Jul 1997 08:08:02 -0400 (EDT)
To:  jco@usfca.edu

"Cybele" was published by Black Sparrow Press, in 1979.  You would probably
have to check used book stores if you wanted to buy a copy now.  Perhaps
 other members know whether Black Sparrow is still able to backorder their
 old titles.  It's first line--"There was a lover of mine who worshipped me,
 and became reckless with his life, which was soon taken from him -- more
 abruptly than I would have wished, and more cruelly, I came to pity him in
 the end." -- put me very much in mind of "Double Delight" The speaker in
 "Cybele" is no doubt Cybele, the Roman earth goddess -- her contemporary
 counterpart.  This dangerous lady is associated with a band of 70s radicals,
 who eventually set the ill-fated protagonist Edwin on fire.  In DD the radicals
 have changed somewhat to a gang of con-artists.  I found the end rather
 poignant: Terrence swimming to "rejoin" his lost family.  I wonder whether
 they'll let him join their merry band, though I rather doubt it.  "Snake Eyes" is
 still my favorite RS novel, though this one's pretty interesting.  I don't know
 how well it will go over with general readers, however.  The court and jury
 scenes at the beginning are pretty engaging.   RS sales must do okay since
 books  keep appearing.  Terrence's attraction to the Renfrews IS pretty odd.
  Sort of a perverse Anne Tyler premise -- like the guy in "Accidental Tourist"
 who finds his true emotional connections with a gypsylike group of folks
 from a lower socio-economic bracket (There's even a pair of twins in Tyler's
 Baltimore slum setting, come to think of it, just like the twins in DD),  It's
 great to find this d-group.  Only JCO could have motivated me to get on line
 at this point in my life.  Thanks for your patience, Randy, I feel like I've
 crashlanded on Jupiter, but I do believe I'm now a subscribed member.
Cyrano



From: KMMANWAR@library.syr.edu
To: jco@usfca.edu
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:08:12 EDT
Subject:  jco on c-span

I'm sure many on the list are aware of c-spanII' About Books, a 
weekend series of 5 hours of book programming.  It airs on Saturday 
evening, 8 to 11, and on Sunday evening, from 9 to 11.  I caught the 
upcoming Saturday (July 12th) schedule which includes a panel 
discussion, in which JCO is a participant, on teaching literature.  
I don't know exactly when she'll be on, but if you tune in at 8, 
they'll announce the schedule of events to be aired that evening.

Kathleen Manwaring   
Syracuse University Library



From: diamond@math.wvu.edu (Harvey Diamond)
Subject: Re: Cybele
To: jco@usfca.edu
Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:36:05 -0400 (EDT)

I found several parts of Cybele memorable and which I still remember after
at least a decade, such as

1) The opening (JCO often has very memorable opening paragraphs/pages)

  "Edwin Locke, whose story, accelerating as it does..."  
that word accelerating! Perfect! 
- have you all not had periods of your life when things
begin to "accelerate", perhaps in an alarming way?

  that last business in the opening where he is observed looking down
by a secretary who opines that perhaps his death was casting a shadow
back, and as we sink into the sentimentality we are brought up short
(enjoyably of course) by the narrator who coldly (boasting?) informs us
 "no, at that very moment he was thinking
of me". By the way, who is the "me" is who is talking here? (One of
the billion things in JCO that I never "got")

2) The whole chapter where he is struggling to get from the airport to meet
his lover in a large hotel.  Lots of confusion, anticipation, longing,
and amusement here!

        The latter part of the book was a little bit too ugly, as
he "accelerates" into degredation and then death.

Harvey Diamond




From: RJohn713@aol.com
Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:00:51 -0400 (EDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: JCO on C-Span 2

Since Kathleen kindly informed us of the panel discussion on C-Span 2
scheduled for this coming weekend, I've discovered that C-Span 2 isn't
available in Atlanta.

If anyone on the list lives in a more cable-ready environment and plans to
tape the panel discussion, I would appreciate your contacting me.  I would
like to borrow the tape from you and of course will pay for postage, etc.
 Thanks very much--

Greg J.



Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 10:34:29 -0400
To: jco@usfca.edu
From: cafuller@EVE.ASSUMPTION.EDU (Catherine Fuller)
 Subject:Tyson article

        Just wanted to alert the group that there is an intriguing article
in this week's New Yorker on Tyson.  Not by our author, but interesting in
that it expands on some of the same points JCO made in the recent N.Y.
Times piece.  Thanks.



Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 21:55:00 -0700
From: Tom & Sandy Fasano 
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: Tyson article

Catherine Fuller wrote:
> 
>         Just wanted to alert the group that there is an intriguing article
> in this week's New Yorker on Tyson. 

I got halfway through the damn thing and had to "throw in the towel."  In 
the end, this guy isn't worth the time reading about. If he couldn't 
throw a punch (a dubious gift by any standard) what would he be? Another 
street punk? Gangbanger?  An inmate (he does belong in prison)? Then 
again, some folks are interested in J. Dahmer or Dahmer spin-offs 
(ZOMBIE).  Whatever....



Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:32:18 -0400
To: jco@usfca.edu
From: cafuller@EVE.ASSUMPTION.EDU (Catherine Fuller)
Subject: Re: Tyson article

>Catherine Fuller wrote:
>>
>>         Just wanted to alert the group that there is an intriguing article
>> in this week's New Yorker on Tyson.
>
>I got halfway through the damn thing and had to "throw in the towel."  In
>the end, this guy isn't worth the time reading about. If he couldn't
>throw a punch (a dubious gift by any standard) what would he be? Another
>street punk? Gangbanger?  An inmate (he does belong in prison)? Then
>again, some folks are interested in J. Dahmer or Dahmer spin-offs
>(ZOMBIE).  Whatever....
        Catherine Fuller replies:

        Iron Mike Tyson has brought interest to the sport of boxing since
the salad sixties days of Cassius Clay/Liston.  He is packaged excitement,
and if you are not boxing fans, it may be hard to understand,,,,



Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:38:05 -0400
To: jco@usfca.edu
From: cafuller@EVE.ASSUMPTION.EDU (Catherine Fuller)
Subject:  "ROCKY" JUST A MOVIE

       To any JCO fans who share her enthusiasm for boxing, hope you
enjoyed the New Yorker article on Mike Tyson.  Somewhat biased against him,
for sure, but interesting pictures drawn of fight and night life in Las
Vegas.



Date:  Mon, 14 Jul 1997 06:59:56 +0000
From:  Francie Schwartz fabela@gte.net
To:  jco@usfca.edu
 Subject: Re: "ROCKY" JUST A MOVIE

Catherine Fuller wrote:
> 
>        To any JCO fans who share her enthusiasm for boxing, hope you
> enjoyed the New Yorker article on Mike Tyson.  Somewhat biased against him,
> for sure, but interesting pictures drawn of fight and night life in Las
> Vegas.

Agreed, Tyson brought more "fans" - but I seriously doubt very many of 
these people perceive the sport on anywhere near the level of jco.
Also agree with the gentleman who said Tyson is not worth reading 
about... New Yorker has published a fairly entertaining piece on a 
very boring young man in need of a good psychiatrist and a better 
press agent.  I much preferred jco's Op-Ed piece.

If you remember Marciano, Sugar Ray, Ali, and the other classic guys, 
you know Tyson is definitely not in their class, never was, and richly 
deserves the obscurity that is sure to envelope him, and soon.  Unless 
he becomes a commentator, in which case we'll all have to mute our TVs 
in order to avoid his scrambled brain droppings (credit George 
Carlin).

Francie



Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:08:23 -0400
To: jco@usfca.edu
From: cafuller@EVE.ASSUMPTION.EDU (Catherine Fuller)
Subject: Re: "ROCKY" JUST A MOVIE

OK, Tyson foes, maybe we should all just wait for the Great White Hope.
Your boxes will be "mute" for quite a while, I am afraid.


>Catherine Fuller wrote:
>>
>>        To any JCO fans who share her enthusiasm for boxing, hope you
>> enjoyed the New Yorker article on Mike Tyson.  Somewhat biased against him,
>> for sure, but interesting pictures drawn of fight and night life in Las
>> Vegas.
>
>Agreed, Tyson brought more "fans" - but I seriously doubt very many of
>these people perceive the sport on anywhere near the level of jco.
>Also agree with the gentleman who said Tyson is not worth reading
>about... New Yorker has published a fairly entertaining piece on a
>very boring young man in need of a good psychiatrist and a better
>press agent.  I much preferred jco's Op-Ed piece.
>
>If you remember Marciano, Sugar Ray, Ali, and the other classic guys,
>you know Tyson is definitely not in their class, never was, and richly
>deserves the obscurity that is sure to envelope him, and soon.  Unless
>he becomes a commentator, in which case we'll all have to mute our TVs
>in order to avoid his scrambled brain droppings (credit George
>Carlin).
>
>Francie



Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:39:09 -0400 (EDT)
From:  Richard Ressmyer ressmyrr@wvlc.wvnet.edu
Subject: Re: "ROCKY" JUST A MOVIE
To: jco@usfca.edu

One TV interview after the BITE had someone use the cliche--

                "When MONEY TALKS, CHARACTER WALKS!"

As a teenager I spoke to Jack Dempsey in front of his Broadway club, I 
saw Ali interviewed in Harlem.

But the last boxing to really draw my attention was Sugar Ray Leonard's 
olympic achievements.

Did anyone see the recent re-broadcast of Requiem for a Heavyweight?  
Serlings masterful, early teleplay with Pleasance and the Winns dug deep 
into "classic" boxing long before these mega-million, international 
neo-gladiator events were imagined by marketing gurus.

Richard
in Charleston



Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:07:11 -0800
From: Randy Souther Randy Souther
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: Tyson article

Tom & Sandy Fasano wrote:
> 
> Catherine Fuller wrote:
> >
> >         Just wanted to alert the group that there is an intriguing article
> > in this week's New Yorker on Tyson.
> 
> I got halfway through the damn thing and had to "throw in the towel."  In
> the end, this guy isn't worth the time reading about. If he couldn't
> throw a punch (a dubious gift by any standard) what would he be? Another
> street punk? Gangbanger?  An inmate (he does belong in prison)? Then
> again, some folks are interested in J. Dahmer or Dahmer spin-offs
> (ZOMBIE).  Whatever....


Well, but J.Dahmer *is* interesting--he's also horrifying and sickening,
and it's perfectly justifiable to erase him from consciousness--but it's
the extremes of human behavior that to me *are* the most "interesting."
Maybe Mike Tyson would have been a "common" criminal if not for his
extraordinary talent--but is that the point? What would any of us "be"
if not for those talents or qualities that we feel set us apart from
everyone else? Tyson, though certainly not a fictional character, is an
emblematic figure--at least in the hands of JCO. How often has a
character in her fiction surprised us with some act of grotesque
violence? With that in mind, it's difficult for me to see any real
difference between JCO's fiction and her boxing writing--or more
specifically, her writing over the years on Mike Tyson. Though she's
certainly not controlling the plot, she is exploring her characteristic
themes. And though I have never considered myself a boxing "fan" (though
certainly not a boxing "foe"--I do recall being something of a fan of
Sugar Ray Leonard), I have found JCO's boxing writing as fascinating as
anything she's done--and here she even points out her themes! 

I have collected on the Web page JCO's Tyson articles, and I would
invite everyone to read them in order. Watching JCO watch Tyson turn
from a "good guy" to a "bad guy" is quite a story.

http://storm.usfca.edu/~southerr/ontyson.html

Randy



Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:01:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Karen Gaffney kgaffney@odin.english.udel.edu
To: jco discussion group jco@usfca.edu
Subject: jco on booknotes


hi. just wondering if anyone saw jco on this weekend's c-span's 
booknotes, which someone mentioned she'd be on. i missed it but if anyone
saw it, let us know what went on.

thanks
karen



From: smancin1@ix.netcom.com
Date:Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:19:55 -0500 (CDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: Tyson article

>>Catherine Fuller wrote:
>>>
>>>         Just wanted to alert the group that there is an intriguing article
>>> in this week's New Yorker on Tyson.
>>

Does anybody have a web address for the New Yorker?

smb



Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:10:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Karen Gaffney kgaffney@odin.english.udel.edu
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: nyer

On Mon, 14 Jul 1997 smancin1@ix.netcom.com wrote:

> Does anybody have a web address for the New Yorker?
> 
> smb
> 

I'm pretty sure the new yorker doesn't have a site.
karen



Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:45:09 -0400
From: "Ralf A. Engeldinger" oatesian@abel.math.harvard.edu
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: nyer

http://www.enews.com/magazines/new_yorker/

The New Yorker's version of a web site. :-)

Hi, everbody, btw.

Ralf A. Engeldinger



From: smancin1@ix.netcom.com
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 16:11:42 -0500 (CDT)
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: nyer

On 07/15/97 12:45:09 you wrote:
>
>http://www.enews.com/magazines/new_yorker/
>
>The New Yorker's version of a web site. :-)
>
>Hi, everbody, btw.
>
>Ralf A. Engeldinger

Thanks RAE.  Duly noted and bookmarked.  I found a partial rendition of the 
article in their archives.    

smb



Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:04:01 -0800
 From: Randy Souther Randy Souther
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Biography

A preview of Greg Johnson's biography of JCO is now
up on the web site:
http://storm.usfca.edu/~southerr/johnson.html

(Ooh, I can't wait for the whole book!)

Randy



From:  marsbase@earthlink.net
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 02:40:24 +0100
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: NY-er site

Hi, all  -- been lurking, here,  for a while.
 
    unexpectedly, did get New Yorker site! --

        www.enews.com/magazines/new_yorker

    BTW, haven't read recent JCO, but was very happy about WONDERLAND
and ZOMBIE.  

    Ms. Oates was very kind.  Yrs ago, when I questioned differing
endings in paper/hard vers. of WONDERLAND, she sent me an auto'd. copy
of Angel Fire!!

   ..... alan



Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 16:22:24 +0200
From:  Norman and Deanna Nelson 
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: Biography

Randy,

Thanks for the tip.  I just returned from reading the preview, and I'm
sitting over here, anxiously awaiting the book.  Can we really wait that
long?  :D

Deanna



From: Cyranomish@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 04:18:19 -0400 (EDT)
 To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  G/. Johnson's JCO bio

Hi, Greg -- the preview is most intriguing.  The epigraph -- where do we go
to read "JCO
and I" (1994)?  In the early 1970's I was struck by the way she would
sometimes
refer to herself as "Joyce Carol Oates" -- the "  " 's appealed to the
Twilight Zone
part of me.  Cyrano



Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 08:26:58 -0700
 From: Tom & Sandy Fasano 
To: jco jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Man Crazy

Maybe this has already been posted. Nonetheless, here goes:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ats-query/0757-2602575-429646



 From: RJohn713@aol.com
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 20:01:01 -0400 (EDT)
To:  jco@usfca.edu
Subject:  Re: G/. Johnson's JCO bio

Thank you, Cyrano.  "JCO and I" is collected in an anthology called "Who's
Writing This?" (edited by Daniel Halpern, Ecco Press, 1995).  It's available
in paperback and probably is in most libraries.

Greg J.

Maintained by Randy Souther
Last updated 7-14-97
Send comments and suggestions to Randy Souther