Subject:   Theft
            Date: Sun, 04 May 1997 21:50:13 -0700
           From:  josh frankel jfrankel@gladstone.uoregon.edu
      Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu
               To: jco@usfca.edu


what is the theme of your story--Theft?



Subject:   Re: Theft
      Date:   Mon, 5 May 1997 01:04:04 -0400 (EDT)
     From:   "Matthew A. Cheney" mac5519@is.NYU.EDU
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu


On Sun, 4 May 1997, josh frankel wrote:

> what is the theme of your story--Theft?
> 
Well, mine is mostly about alien abduction and how it relates to the
battle over a balanced budget.  Joyce Carol Oates's story (which, by the
way, is much less subversive than mine, although the talking dog I
sometimes converse with late at night tells me I'm a far less entertaining
writer; I plan to boil him up tomorrow and see what sorts of themes
reside in him) later became part of her novel MARYA: A LIFE, which I
recommend, despite the hideous cover on the paperback, if you can find a
copy at a used bookstore -- but anyway, the theme?  Well.  "ThemeS" would
probably be more appropriate, but you might start out with things like
alienation, friendship, perseverance, class (in all senses), and, if you
hadn't thought of it already, theft.  

But then, you read the story just like I did, and you've probably read it
more recently than I have, so you might be in trouble if you believe
anything I've written.

And what are you doing up so late?

Happy reading,
Matthew Cheney



Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 20:11:39 -0400
From: "Gary K. Clabaugh, Ed. D." clabaugha@lasalle.edu
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: violence in oates

I'm interested in why Oates' works are so violent.How essential is it or is it sometimes  gratuitous or 
even purely commercial?



Subject:   Re: violence in oates
            Date:   Mon, 12 May 1997 18:47:38 +0000
           From:  Francie Schwartz fabela@gte.net
      Reply-To:   jco@usfca.edu


Gary K. Clabaugh, Ed. D. wrote:
> 
> I'm interested in why Oates' works are so violent.How essential is it or is it sometimes  gratuitous or
> even purely commercial?

Violent compared to what?  Commercial?  I don't think so.  That she 
happens to be one of the most prolific novelists of our time makes 
this generalization seem so vague... it's like saying Picasso's 
paintings were filled with gratuitous rage... which books?  Which 
paintings?  As one who admits to not having read everything Oates ever 
wrote, I can say it's not the violence that's so striking... it's the 
emotional truth of her characters.

Francie



Subject:  Re: violence in oates
      Date:  Mon, 12 May 97 23:50:40 -0400
     From:  t-hulslander t-hulslander@top.monad.net
Reply-To:   jco@usfca.edu

As someone who has just about everything I could find written by JCO, I 
find that the level of violence in her work seems to reflect the violence 
in our society.  "them" has a certain level of violence; racially 
motivated, poverty-motivated, etc.  I do not think the violence is 
commercial, any more so than the acts of violence we see on the news each 
night.  Abhorrant as it is, violence is a fact of life in this world, and 
I think what the writer strives for is the drive behind it.  JCO has that 
ability to let us see inside the minds of her characters, both the 
violators and the violated.  Don't you sometimes see or read something 
that an actual person has done, some crime, and wondered, WHAT was going 
on in that person's head????
It is just my opinion, but I would rather read a fictional account than 
to watch some program titled,"The World's Most Violent Crimes!" on t.v.  
(I saw something like that in my local listing.) 

'Till next time,
Krista



Subject:   Re: violence in oates
         Date:  Mon, 12 May 1997 20:56:46 -0800
        From:  Randy Souther Randy Souther
   Reply-To:    jco@usfca.edu

As I'm sure many of you know, JCO has often been charged with excessive
violence, to which she even responded in print in an article called "Why
is your writing so violent?"  But I have to sympathize with the people
who feel compelled to ask this question; and I think it is a good
question, and a valid question, if we try to see what prompts it. I
think there is something qualitatively different about the violence in
JCO's works compared to the majority of fiction out there. 

As far as the number of violent episodes in a given JCO work, I have no
doubt that there are far fewer than in a given thriller, horror novel,
etc. currently on the bestseller lists. It is not the quantity of
violence, but the quality that compells the question. In its simplest
terms, most of the violence in popular fiction--regardless of how
pervasive it is--is forgettable; most of the violence in JCO's
work--regardless of how infrequently it occurs--is unforgettable. JCO's
physical violence is so intertwined with psychic violence, and we as
readers are so caught-up in the psyche of JCO's characters (this is my
experience in any case), that the violence is, in some sense,
*experienced*, rather than merely witnessed. With other books the
violence stays on the page; JCO often manages to put it in your head.

So the question, "why is your writing so violent?", though no doubt
annoying when asked over and over and over again, shouldn't be dismissed
too quickly. Perhaps some people are really asking, "why does your
writing affect me so much?" Or maybe they really are accusing JCO of
something: of making them experience violence; but since you can't
seriously make such an accusation any more than you can seriously accuse
someone of being a witch, the question comes out, "why is your *writing*
so violent?" 

I had the same kind of reading experience with Dostoevsky, particularly
THE POSSESSED and THE BROTHERS KARAMAZOV. I think JCO's "violence" is of
the same depth and intensity, and this is what accounts for its looming
large in people's minds.

Randy Souther



Subject:  Re: violence in oates
      Date:  Mon, 12 May 1997 22:14:46 -0700
     From:   Nikki Senecal senecal@scf-fs.usc.edu
 To:  jco@usfca.edu

>I'm interested in why Oates' works are so violent.How essential is it or
>is it sometimes  gratuitous or
>even purely commercial?

Would you ask whether bullfights were essential to, say, Hemingway?  Do you
wonder why Steven King's works are so violent?  I would recommend Oates's
essay published in the New York Times Book Review titled, "Why is Your
Writing So Violent?"

And I am genuinely interested in your response to my initial questions.
Oates's violence and its reception are part of my dissertation.

Nikki Senecal



Subject:   Re: violence in oates
      Date:  Tue, 13 May 1997 06:46:32 -0700 (PDT)
     From:   "V. Suzanne Drake" tanager@crl.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu


Krista, I agree that jco has a wonderful ability to see into the minds of 
her characters.  She illuminates the dark side of us all and makes us see 
that it is in *us* as well as *them*.  Suzanne in N. California

> 



Subject:   Re: violence in oates
      Date:   Tue, 13 May 97 11:42:33 -0400
     From:  t-hulslander t-hulslander@top.monad.net
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu


Suzanne,
My point exactly...you put it much more succinctly!  

Krista



Subject:  Re: violence in oates
      Date:  Tue, 13 May 1997 11:15:27 -0500 (CDT)
     From:   smancin1@ix.netcom.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu

On 05/13/97 06:46:32 you wrote:
>
>Krista, I agree that jco has a wonderful ability to see into the minds of 
>her characters.  She illuminates the dark side of us all and makes us see 
>that it is in *us* as well as *them*.  Suzanne in N. California
>
>> 
>
>
Well put, Suzanne.  I agree that reading Oates makes us realize that we all 
have a dark side.  It is simply a part of the human condition.  Remember the 
classical period when gods were perceived as deified humans and contained 
both evil and divine aspects.  Realizing that good and evil coexist in our 
world helps make sense of seemingly chaotic world events. 

smb



Subject:  Re: violence in oates
      Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 12:57:03 -0400 (EDT)
     From:   Heather L Ormiston hormisto@mission.mvnc.edu
Reply-To: 

        I have really enjoyed the conversation about the violence in
Oates. I was just discussing this with my British Lit. professor the other
day. She said that the use of violence is one of the major traits of the
writers of the second half of the twentieth century. I really think that
Oates takes this to a higher level because, as some of you have said, she
is using the violence for a higher purpose. She doesn't just write
something violent to shock her readers. I can't imagine Foxfire, my
favorite by her so far, without the violence that the girls in that book
experience. It would take so much away from her characters because humans
do not always act and react in a calm and non-violent manner. I think this
is one of the many things that makes her characters and stories so vivid
for me.
Heather Ormiston
hormisto@mvnc.edu



Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 14:59:04 +0000
From: SHELLYE SHELLYE@Prodigy.Net
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: violence in oates

Heather L Ormiston wrote:
> 
>         I have really enjoyed the conversation about the violence in
> Oates. I was just discussing this with my British Lit. professor the other
> day. She said that the use of violence is one of the major traits of the
> writers of the second half of the twentieth century. I really think that
> Oates takes this to a higher level because, as some of you have said, she
> is using the violence for a higher purpose. She doesn't just write
> something violent to shock her readers. I can't imagine Foxfire, my
> favorite by her so far, without the violence that the girls in that book
> experience. It would take so much away from her characters because humans
> do not always act and react in a calm and non-violent manner. I think this
> is one of the many things that makes her characters and stories so vivid
> for me.
> Heather Ormiston
> hormisto@mvnc.edu


just read your post and i noticed that you mention Foxfire being you
rfavorit book--have you read Because It Is Bitter And Because Its my
Heart?? That by far is my favorite--with We Were The Mulvaneys close
behind.  I have to say that I haven't read Foxfire--but i happened to
accidently see the movie and thought it was awful!!! Have you seen the
movie?? If so, please reassure me that the book is better.
Take Care
Shellye



Subject: Re: violence in oates
Date: Tue, 13 May 97 16:22:18 -0400
From: t-hulslander t-hulslander@top.monad.net
To: jco@usfca.edu

Shellye,
I just read your post and agree with you about the two books you 
mentioned.  I loved We Were the Mulvaneys.  Have you read "them"?  An 
early book, and it was my first JCO read, years ago.  I keep buying 
copies of it, just to read two or three times a year.  The characters, 
experiences, are unforgetable.
Krista



Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:57:15 +0000
From: SHELLYE SHELLYE@Prodigy.Net
To: jco@usfca.edu
Subject: Re: violence in oates

t-hulslander wrote:
> 
> Shellye,
> I just read your post and agree with you about the two books you
> mentioned.  I loved We Were the Mulvaneys.  Have you read "them"?  An
> early book, and it was my first JCO read, years ago.  I keep buying
> copies of it, just to read two or three times a year.  The characters,
> experiences, are unforgetable.
> Krista

Thanks for the tip--i haven't read "Them"  I'm glad to see that you
enjoyed We WERE....I haven't spoken with many who have liked the book. 
I am currently a songwriter in the New Haven, CT area and have recently
just finished a song which i feel to be my best to date--it is based on
Marianne from the book. For some reason i just couldn't stop thinking
about that character after finishing the book and this song just popped
out!! When people say "Thats such a sad song...what is it about?" I tell
them---read the book!!!
Shellye



Subject:   Re: violence in oates
      Date:   Wed, 14 May 1997 00:17:25 -0400 (EDT)
     From:   "Matthew A. Cheney" mac5519@is.NYU.EDU
Reply-To:    jco@usfca.edu


The questions you have to ask about the violence in Oates's work are the
questions you ask about any important element in a work of fiction: why is
it there, is it integral to the story, why is it written the way it is
written, and does it seem justified? To some extent, everyone will answer
differently, based on our own tastes and prejudices and experience, but
there should be (in most cases) some sort of consensus.

Why is it that so many people notice the violence in Oates?  What makes it
stand out for so many people?  Is this a good thing?  When her short
stories are collected in a book and we're able to read one story after
another, does this make the violence stand out more than if the story were
just one in a magazine?  This last question occurred to me after I read a
number of stories from HEAT in one sitting -- the violence seemed to be a
mannerism in some of the stories, though other stories seem perfectly
modulated, perfectly real and beautiful works of art.  But I can't help
feeling that a story like "The Knife" is simply gratuitous, even sadistic,
an example of all of Oates's worst tendencies.  Why do I notice this?
Because she a female writer?  No, I would think it was a bad story no
matter who wrote it!  (It's even more irksome because I want my favorite
writers to always write sublimely, every single word!  But then, even
perfection gets boring, and I'm grateful to her for taking risks.)

More questions than answers, I think, but the questions dig to the core of
what is Oates: what is great and what is not.

Matthew Cheney



Subject:  Re: violence in oates
      Date:  Tue, 13 May 1997 23:49:49 -0700
     From:  ccaddick@capcollege.bc.ca


Hi all!
I wanted to respond to the topic about violence in Oates' work. I chose some
of Oates' work for an English assignment and found that I became very
wierded out because my brain came up with gorey, gross pictures of what had
happened in the stories and realized that Oates did not give many detail --
my imagination was describing the awful pictures! Her writing is brilliant
in this way. This I found disturbing and scarey about myself and felt quite
uncomfortable -- I couldn't believe I could come up with such strange and
gross ideas and pictures. I didn't find this type of violence commercial at
all since I was responsible for the images I was seeing in my mind. This was
especially true for the short story "Heat". I was very disturbed with myself.

Speaking of movies, I haven't seen FoxFire but I did see the movie Smooth
Moves - it was supposed to be based on the short story "Where Are You Going?
Where Have You Been?". The movie was not true to the story and just plain
old cheezy! Treat Williams and Laura Dern were the stars. It was REALLY BAD.

Thanks for reading this!

carol 



Subject:   Re: violence in Oates
      Date:   Wed, 14 May 1997 21:39:50 +0930
     From:   gjscales@camtech.net.au (Greg Scales)
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu

I don't think JCO, or any other author, needs to apologise for including
violence in their work. I've only read a small part of the enormous JCO
canon, but I've never encountered a violent episode in her writing (even
including Zombie) that seemed unnecessary or gratuitous or prurient. For my
taste, JCO handles violence as intelligently and as adroitly as every other
subject she deals with. Many readers, of course, prefer novels which ignore
the darker side of human nature, hence the current vogue for writers like
Jane Austen. Joyce Carol Oates appears to be deeply interested in the
problem of human evil, and her writing is all the more thought-provoking
and powerful because of this.



Subject:   Re: violence in oates
      Date:  Wed, 14 May 1997 09:42:12 -0400 (EDT)
     From:  Heather L Ormiston hormisto@mission.mvnc.edu
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu

        No, I have not seen the movie, but I have read a little bit about
it and it does sound awful. In the movie, it is updated to the nineties
and I think that a lot of the film may be overdone. In relation to the
discussion on violence, I think that the violence in Foxfire might not
translate well to the screen because I think that film has to overstate
things sometimes to make them understandable. The characters in the book
are very well written, of course, and I'm not sure how well they could be
acted. I have wanted to see it for awhile, but when I began to hear about
some of the changes that had been made I became skeptical.
        I have not read Because it is bitter . . ., but I think it is one
of the ones that I will get around to this summer. I did read We Were the
Mulvaneys and I loved it too! That book is also a good example of how
Oates uses violence. I also do not think that it would do well as a movie
because so much of the action and subsequent violence is interior, and
therefore better suited to a novel.
hormisto@mvnc.edu



Subject:  Re: violence in oates
      Date:  Wed, 14 May 1997 09:45:55 -0400 (EDT)
     From:  Heather L Ormiston hormisto@mission.mvnc.edu
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu

        Shellye,
                I would love to hear your song! Marriane is such an
interesting character. I think Patrick was my favorite, though. I am not
sure why, but I found his sense of devotion very appealing. Now you've got
me thinking that I should write something about that . . .
heather



Subject:  Re: violence in oates
      Date:  Wed, 14 May 1997 10:14:49 -0400 (EDT)
     From:   LoriLamb@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu

In response to what Matthew wrote about "Knife", I don't agree.  When I read H
eat, I read it all in one sitting, too.  I thought that "Knife" and "Naked"
complemented each other well.  I don't think the violence in "Knife" is "just
for show" in any way.  I found the story to be very real to life.
 Supposedly, a great number of rapes go unreported.  The fact that the female
character had the knife, but could not bring herself to use it is very
telling.  It echoes the larger theme of the story perfectly.  Also, in Naked,
the female character is ashamed of what has happened to her.  She makes her
way home naked and hides in the bushes outside her own house so that her
family won't see her.  Same kind of thing going on here as in Knife I think.
 

Many of JCO's female characters seem to exhibit this seemingly dualistic
strength/shame.  These women try so much to be strong and independent, but
then they seem to take it to an extreme,and can't show "weakness" when it
really isn't weakness at all--it is a violent act that has been committed
against the and they have every right to complain and expose it.  I wonder
why they can't?  (A friend of mine who has read only Heat read it and said
that stories of this kind made her mad and made her realize how she "did not
want to be."  This could be it.)  This also makes me think of Marianne in the
Mulvaneys and Marya in Marya:  A Life.  Perhaps this is why I like Foxfire so
much.  The girls in Foxfire do expose the wrongs and actually do something
about what has happened.

Good discussion!

LL



Subject: Re: violence in oates
      Date:  Thu, 15 May 1997 10:10:02 -0400 (EDT)
     From:   RJohn713@aol.com
Reply-To:  jco@usfca.edu

Regarding "The Knife," you might be interested in a little background.
 Joyce's Princeton-area friend, Alicia Ostriker (a renowned poet who teaches
at Rutgers), was raped and wrote an article about the experience for THE
VILLAGE VOICE.  Joyce read the article and based "The Knife" on Ostriker's
experience (Ostriker said she "wasn't offended at all" and is an admirer of
JCO's work).  In so much of JCO's fiction about violent events (e.g., "Where
Are You Going, Where Have You Been?", BLACK WATER, ZOMBIE, et al), the germ
of the story is a newspaper or magazine article.

Greg J.

Maintained by Randy Souther
Last updated 5-14-97
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